He Says, She Says

He says: Well, Scout, I really enjoyed reading "To Kill a Mockingbird". It deserves its reputation as one of the best novels in American literature!

Hey, it's time to start thinking about what we're going to read next!

She says: I agree 100% Atticus, it's reputation is well deserved. It was exceptional.

As to our next book, did you know that "I Am the Messenger" is dedicated "To Scout"? Maybe Markus Zusak was trying to nudge us in his direction!

He says: Ha, ha, wasn't that nice of him to dedicate a book to you!

She says: I guess I have a wider fan base than I realized (wink), okay, so maybe it's not so much a nudge as a blatant shove!

Women's Intuition

She says: As Jem lays unconscious and wounded in his room with various characters getting "the story" straight, Aunt Alexandra prepares to exit when she pauses in a moment of guilt and says:

"Atticus, I had a feeling about this tonight-I-this is my fault...I should have-"

At which point Mr. Tate tries to comfort her telling her:

"You go ahead, Miss Alexandra, I know it's been a shock to you. And don't you fret yourself about anything-why, if we followed our feelings all the time we'd be like cats chasin' their tails."

This has prompted me to consider whether or not I believe that perhaps Women are more intuitive or apt to follow their instincts than men. I found the following article interesting in regards to this topic:
Women's vs. Men's Intuition
What do you think Atticus?

He says: You know, Scout, I had a feeling you were going to ask me that. :)

Thanks for that link! A couple of points of special interest:

...although the average woman doesn't have more empathic ability than the average man, we could create a heightened level of motivation in the women by reminding them that the task was one in which women should excel.

In other words, people live up to our expectations! Since we've been talking about child-rearing lately, let's add that concept to the list of things that conscientious parents
need to know and practice.

Here's another interesting one:

...men as a group aren't poor "everyday mind readers"; they are simply unmotivated ones.

So, men can be just as sensitive as women, given the right incentives. The paper described one experiment that showed that men could be sensitive if you paid them to be sensitive, ha, ha!

Perhaps it's true that, in general, men are more motivated by tangible things than women, and we men don't get a chance to show our sensitive sides very often because the tangible incentives we need usually aren't there. Uh, oh. I'm getting that "I've stepped into a minefield" feeling.

Bringing these topics back around to our book: When I read that same part that you quoted, it actually kind of jarred me--it almost seemed out of character for Heck Tate. Up until that point in the book, he seemed to be a decent enough man, but I had no idea that he would be so empathetic to Aunt Alexandra in that scene. Maybe there was a back story there that I missed?

Once A Big Sister ALWAYS A Big Sister

She says: Perhaps I've been a bit hard on Aunt Alexandra. Her role as Atticus's sister take on an entirely new feeling in chapter 24 when she learns of the death of Tom Robinson. In her exchange with Miss Maudie she says:

I can't say I approve of everything he does, Maudie, but he's my brother, and I just want to know when this will ever end. It tears him to pieces. He doesn't show it much, but it tears him to pieces. I've seen him when--what else do they want from him, Maudie, what else?

When Miss Maudie inquires as to who it is Aunt Alexandra is referring to she says:

I mean this town. They're perfectly willing to let him do what they're afraid to do themselves-it might lose 'em a nickel. They're perfectly willing to let him wreck his health doing what they're afraid to do, they're...

As a big sister myself, I know how protective I can be when it comes to one of my siblings. As I read her words, I began to view Aunt Alexandra in a softer light. It's the first time in the book the word "protagonist" came to mind. Is she on our side after all? Just misunderstood?

He says: I don't think you were too hard on her. She was meddlesome and out of synch with what Atticus was trying to do as a father. I think she saw her move into the Finch house as an opportunity to wield her influence more directly on Scout, who she thought wasn't growing up lady-like enough. She valued the family name in the abstract above what was good for Atticus and the children on a day-to-day basis.

But, yes, when the chips were down, she did come around. Maybe it took an incident as serious as what happened to Jem to open her eyes. For example, after all the times that she'd nagged Scout about wearing a dress, here's what happened in the Finch house on that terrible night (Scout is speaking):

She brought me something to put on, and had I thought about it then, I would have never let her forget it; in her distraction, Aunty brought me my overalls. "Put these on, darling," she said, handing me the garments she most despised.

Scout blames the effect on distraction, but maybe we should give Alexandra the benefit of the doubt, and say that she's seen the light.

A Girl's Wisdom

He says: After the trial, Jem is stewing in his juices about what has happened and why. He finally figures it out to his satisfaction and tries to explain it to Scout:

"You know something, Scout? I've got it all figured out, now. I've thought about it a lot lately and I've got it figured out. There's four kinds of folks in the world. There's the ordinary kind like us and the neighbors, there's the kind like the Cunninghams out in the woods, the kind like the Ewells down at the dump, and the Negroes."

But Scout is wise beyond her years. She has learned from Atticus:

"Naw, Jem, I think there's just one kind of folks. Folks."

To me, this scene summarizes the moral that Harper Lee was trying to convey to her readers. Black, white, male, female, old, young, and even psychologically or developmentally disabled like Boo; we're all the same underneath: just folks. And we all want and deserve to be treated with respect.

She says: I think you're right Atticus. Lee is obviously hoping to promote tolerance and equality in each and every page of this book. I think the last exchange between Atticus and Scout as he is putting her to bed and she is trying to convince him that she was paying attention to the ghost story book he had been reading further illustrates your point:

"...they all thought it was Stoner's Boy messin' up their clubhouse an' throwin' ink all over it an'...An they chased him 'n' never could catch him 'cause they didn't know what he looked like, an' Atticus, when they finally saw him, why he hadn't done any of those things...Atticus, he was real nice...":

"Most people are, Scout, when you finally see them."

Atticus on How to be a Father

He says: As a father myself, I felt like Harper Lee was reading my mind when she wrote the following (Atticus is speaking):

"Sometimes I think I’m a total failure as a parent, but I’m all they’ve got. Before Jem looks at anyone else he looks at me, and I’ve tried to live so I can look squarely back at him...."

Atticus has tried to live by showing respect for all of his fellow human beings, without regard to their skin color, age, or gender. In a word, Atticus tries to live the Golden Rule. That's the example he's setting for his children.

Just think how much nicer our day-to-day lives would be if everyone tried to do the same!

She says: Interestingly, I think your approach to parenting is somewhat unique. I don't know a lot of parents that would see their children enough as equals to apply the Golden Rule. Certainly, I believe there are some age restraints one must consider, as I HOPE I am still intellectually superior to my 5 year old, however, when it comes to how I treat her emotionally, I believe perhaps we have stumbled onto some common ground. Just as I don't like to be told how to feel, she doesn't either, just as I'm not fond of being told what to do, neither is she. So, while the role of Mother will still be played by yours truly, there are ways in which we can all re-evaluate how we apply The Golden Rule in our day-to-day with others, ESPECIALLY our children. Atticus' example is a brilliant reminder.

He says: I agree that you can't treat children the same way that you treat adults. Kids have to grow into their rights and responsibilities. But there are parents, like Atticus, who treat their children with real respect no matter what age their children are, while there are many other parents who, well, don't.

You obviously respect your children; acknowledging that your 5 year old's emotions are just as valid as your own is very Atticusian! :)

Back to the book. You know, I'm not sure if Atticus raised Jem and Scout the way he did because it was his philosophy to do so--or whether he just did the best he could as a single parent and raising them way he did was the line of least friction.

Aunt Alexandra thought he was doing an inadequate job as a father. But if you judge a parent by the actions of his children, to me it seems like Atticus was doing fine.

Which Gender Has The Better Memory? I Forget??

She says: Once again as we visit the lighter side of To Kill A Mockingbird, I have to ask you if you agree with Calpurnia's statement upon discussion her age as it relates to Atticus:

"I'm older than Mr. Finch, even."  Calpurnia grinned.  "Not sure how much, though.  We started rememberin' one time, trying to figure out how old I was-I can remember back just a few years more'n he can, so I'm not much older, when you take off the fact that men can't remember as well as women."

I once read that the more emotion is associated with an event in one's life the more clearly you remember it.  If women are typically naturally more emotional creatures, does that mean we remember better than men?

He says: I never thought about it, Scout, so I decided to look it up!

This article in the National Academy of Sciences, a peer-reviewed journal, appears to confirm your point:

Psychological studies have found better memory in women than men for emotional events, but the neural basis for this difference is unknown.

This article piles it on:

According to Swedish psychologists Agneta Herlitz and Jenny Rehnman, women do in fact have a greater capacity to remember, showing strengths in episodic memory, a type of long-term memory based on personal experiences.

So, there we have it--looks like you and Calpurnia are right!

Scout on Learning to Be a Lady

He says: I thought this was a hilarious scene. Jem tries to help Scout understand Aunt Alexandra's motives. Scout is succinct.

"You know she's not used to girls," said Jem, "leastways, not girls like you. She's trying to make you a lady. Can't you take up sewin' or somethin'?"

Scout replies: "Hell, no."

She says: Definitely a laugh-out-loud conversation. Just another reason I love being a woman in the 21st century. If I don't know how to sew (which I don't, but have the utmost respect for people who do, male or female) I am not frowned upon by society. As I sit here considering it, I am trying to think of a skill that, were I lacking society might raise it's Aunt-Alexandra-eyebrows at me...nothing comes to mind. I suppose if I were a bad mother that might be cause for pause, but I don't consider that a skill as much as a calling in life.

On the flip side of that, I am sitting here thinking of things I've done recently that have drawn compliments or accolades from others, most of those have been athletic accomplishments which we know in 1935 would not have been on the top of most women's lists.

Just One Of The Golden Girls

She says: Atticus, you commented before on "The Golden Rule".  For me, the most poignant illustration of this occurs as Scout stands on Boo Radley's porch and for just a moment glimpses her world, their world, through his eyes.  As I reflect on this scene I realize there are probably a couple of proverbial porches I need to stand on.

He says: Well said, Scout!

Over the course of the book, Scout matures a lot. In the passage you're talking about, she has reached a level of empathy and understanding far beyond her 9 years. And I think she has learned the lesson that Atticus was trying to teach about respect for another person, which begins with, as you so aptly phrase it, "looking through his eyes".

Women on Juries?

He says:

Atticus: "For one thing, Miss Maudie can't serve on a jury because she's a woman--"
Scout: "You mean women in Alabama can't--?" I was indignant.

In 1935, women were excluded from jury duty in most states. Over the years, some states tried to veneer the fact that women were being discriminated against by discouraging them rather than disqualifying them. For example, in Florida (until 1961), a woman had to go to the clerk of the circuit court and register her desire to be placed on the jury list.

It wasn't until 1975, in the case of Taylor v. Louisiana that the Supreme Court brushed aside various states' attempts to segregate juries based on gender: "[It] is no longer tenable to hold that women as a class may be excluded or given automatic exemptions based solely on sex...."

Here's a couple of places to get more information about this part of American history:

Legacy98.org
Ms. magazine article

She says: Does it make you wonder how many court cases would have turned out different had women been allowed on juries earlier in our country's history?

An Art to Manliness

She says: In Atticus' cross examination of Mayella Ewell he addresses her as "Miss Mayella" and "Ma'am". This incites nothing but ire from the witness as she is sure she is being mocked by Mr. Finch.

Atty, You and I have spoken before about how more and more we seem to observe a lack of manners on the part of people, young and old, male and female.

In his book The Art of Manliness Brett McKay does his best to salvage what is left of the dying art of decorum, attire, and overall gentlemanly attributes by providing clear and succinct instructions and illustrations. The question I pose to you is, do men care anymore? Our society has changed dramatically since 1935 (the year this book is set in), is it ridiculous to suppose that men care anymore about the proper way to address a woman, the proper way to wear a hat, the proper way to iron a shirt?

(Note: Mr. McKay also has a website The Art of Manliness)

McKay instructs in the book that it is appropriate etiquette to remove one's hat if a lady enters the same elevator as you, or if you enter an elevator in which a lady is already present. I would notice such a thing if a gentleman did it, but would other women? Do men no longer pay attention to such things because we as women fail to recognize it when they do and return courtesies?

He says: Thanks for tossing me a softball, Scout! It's easy for me to get up on my soapbox about the topic of manners.

Let's separate the question into two parts: manners in general and then, more specifically, gender etiquette.

In general terms, manners are the visible part of the Golden Rule! For example, take a guy who tries to cut in line at the baseball stadium box office. You don't like it; I don't like it; the guy who does it would hate it if someone else did it to him! It's thoughtless, rude and inconsiderate; it's bad manners! It's the opposite of living the Golden Rule. But lots of people do that and worse things all day every day. Why? Well, that might be a whole 'nother discussion because this one's already getting long and I haven't even started on the gender part of the question yet.

But before I do, here's a book that I think goes a long way towards explaining the phenomenon of bad manners in our society. Although focused primarily on economics, it also touches on the subject that we're talking about.

Now, turning to ladies and gentlemen. I was born and bred in the South at a time when, at least in my family, a boy was still taught to behave like a gentleman. So I know all about removing my hat in the presence of a lady, standing if a lady enters the room, and standing behind my chair until all of the ladies are seated at the dinner table. I wince when I'm with a group of people at work if a man gets in the elevator before all the women do. My boss, who's from "somewhere up north", looks askance at me when I "yes, ma'am" her. Maybe it's a kind of Mayella thing with her. :)

But I also lived through the years when it became unfashionable to even use the word "lady". Women wanted to be treated as equals in all things and in all ways, which I understand and try to teach my own daughter (another topic to add to the list for another post!). Unfortunately, as a by-product, gentlemanly manners became unfashionable too. They were interpreted as condescending or even insulting.

So, Scout, sometimes it's hard for a gentleman to know what to do in the presence of a lady!

A Woman's Work

He says: In Chapter 13, Aunt Alexandra comes to live with Atticus, Jem and Scout. She's there, perhaps against Atticus' better judgment, in order to exert a woman's influence on Jem, and especially on Scout, who is growing up a little too tomboy-ish for Aunt Alexandra, and moreover, isn't living up to the Finch family name.

In the last few pages of the chapter, Atticus lays down the law to Jem and Scout. It is clear that he is doing so at Aunt Alexandra's insistence and even using her own words.

As Atticus was leaving the room, Scout asked him:

"You really want us to do all that? I can't remember everything Finches are supposed to do...."

Atticus is unable to maintain the demeanor that Aunt Alexandra insisted on; he replies:

"I don't want you to remember it. Forget it."

Atticus leaves, but then sticks his head back in the door to make a little joke.

The last couple of sentences of the chapter are:

I know now what he was trying to do, but Atticus was only a man. It takes a woman to do that kind of work.

Scout, those two sentences stumped me. Something that will make sense later when I've read more of the book? Or did I miss something?

She says:  As much as it pains me to admit this, my interpretation of Scout's line at the end of the chapter involves a word synonymous with plenty of women I know...meddling.

(note: I do not entirely exclude myself from the meddling-women category...I'm a meddler...I meddle at times :-)

No one can deny that Aunt Alexandra appears at this juncture in the book to meddle.  To serve her own selfish needs, she is attempting to salvage the dive bomb the Finch's reputation is taking as a result of Atticus's taking on Tom Robinson's case.  The level of interference and manipulation being exercised on the part of "Aunty" is not unique to her, and her alone.

Most women, whether they know it or not, are endowed with the ability to use their gender to their advantage, whether that means applying the warmth of a mother's touch to a skinned knee, the application of a patient smile to the frustrating cashier at the department store or the ability to act like a complete idiot to coax a smile from a baby.  We think, we feel, we express ourselves differently than most men.  Some women may choose to use their powers for evil (a perfect example being characters like Aunt Alexandra).  Thank goodness for men like Atticus to set the balance of power right again and keep the universe in check.

I would love to hear alternate interpretations to the lines you captured as I believe we have only skimmed the surface of this vague, but profound chapter in Lee's narrative.  As I read this chapter, I was made keenly aware of the foreshadowing taking place as we near the dramatic courtroom and legal case that will teach Scout, Jem, and Atticus the lesson of their lives.

Clothes Make the Woman?

He says: Scout, since you brought up fashion a couple of posts ago, I thought you might enjoy this quote that describes Aunt Alexandra's habiliment (a good word that I believe I saw for the first time in "To Kill a Mockingbird"):

Today was Sunday, and Aunt Alexandra was positively irritable on the Lord's Day. I guess it was her Sunday corset. She was not fat, but solid, and she chose protective garments that drew up her bosom to giddy heights, pinched in her waist, flared out her rear, and managed to suggest that Aunt Alexandra's was once an hour-glass figure. From any angle, it was formidable.

Protective garments?? Ha, ha, aren't you glad women don't dress like that anymore?!

You know, I put off reading this book for years because I was under the impression that it was a drab story with a heavy-handed moral, and worse, that the moral was no longer relevant. Well, maybe we'll talk about the moral later, but I'm here to tell you now that there is a lot of humor in this book!

She says: Atticus, it's such a testament to how women are viewed in general when we consider how restrictive their clothing has been through the decades.  Everything and anything to enhance the female form and figure.  Irritable would be an understatement if I had to lace myself into a corset every Sunday, I would be down right homicidal.

Funny, as liberated as we women of today consider ourselves, we're still a slave to fashion and all it's discomfort.  For those of you who have ever spent any length of time in a pair of 6 inch platform heels, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I agree with you 100% it is a terribly amusing book despite it's heavy topics.

Measure of a Man

She says: Scout puts a lot of weight behind her father's athletic ability, or lack there of...

He did not do the things our schoolmates' fathers did: he never went hunting, he did not play poker or fish or drink or smoke. He sat in the living room and read.

This begs the question: What is the true measure of a man? Are there still modern-day examples of the proverbial "The biggest muscles win"? (I hate to be cliche about it, but we can't deny what a professional athlete makes versus say a professional educator...or a professional stay-at-home Mom for that matter [giggle]).

Have we advanced beyond Scout's short-sighted view of what truly makes a man, or as a society do we still consciously or unconsciously assign worth in this manner?

He says: No, Scout, we haven't advanced much as a society. Here's a corollary question: as a society, can we advance much?

The field of sociobiology tries to answer questions like this by determining the evolutionary advantage that the behavior bestows on the group that exhibits it. In this case, the behavior is that women (and girls, who after all learn their behavior from their mothers and their other female role models) value males' physical ability disproportionately compared to other abilities, like the ability to play chess, write poetry, or do gender-based literary analysis. :)

The evolutionary advantage in this case seems obvious. A physically robust male is more likely to produce healthier offspring than a skinny, maladroit four-eyed computer geek. So the quarterback is generally more attractive to females than the captain of the chess club.

As you can imagine, sociobiology has been somewhat controversial over the years. Here are some books if you're interested in finding out more about it.

Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson. Wilson invented the field of sociobiology with the publication of this book.

Why Men Won't Ask for Directions: The Seductions of Sociobiology by Richard C. Francis. Sociobiology attempts to explain human behavior in terms of its evolutionary advantages and disadvantages. As the title implies, this book contains some counterarguments to the strict sociobiological interpretation of behavior.

As to why men won't ask for directions. The sociobiological explanation is that long ago, the males who had a superlative spatial sense and sense of direction were more successful at hunting, so they were more attractive to women as potential mates.

She says: Excellent insights Atticus!  I have the urge to begin an in depth discussion on the evolution of sociobiology (also sometimes referred to as evolutionary psychology) itself since I know that Wilson's book was first published in 1975.  As you know A LOT can change about a person, gender, science in 35 or 36 years :-)